April 11, 2008...2:51 pm

Shannon Matthews, Family Breakdown and progressives.

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The unravelling of what was assumed to be the Shannon Matthews child abduction case has revealed aspects of our society that are deeply uncomfortable for most observers. A family of seven children, (always noted as being from five diffferent fathers), relationships that are distorted both by age and by background, a seemingly fraudulent use of a child for gain – all played out against what may or may not be a background of child abuse.

It feels like an infinitely depressing story. By the light it casts on tragedies that are normally played out in the quiet shadows, it seems to demand that we look at our society, what it has become, how it got here. It’s perhaps even more depressing for progressives. Conservatives of all stripes, while feeling the same horror at tragedy, can at least enjoy the reflex of condemning, not only the Matthews family, but social breakdown, “liberal” attitudes, and the current government, all in one.

Naturally, the first draft of our national response has come, not from politicians, but from the media. The platonian form of this response comes from Allison Pearson, writing in the Daily Mail, though equivalent articles can be found in most newspapers.

“Those of us who dared to question the family’s way of life were pilloried. Apparently, we were middle-class snobs looking down on a poor, working-class world. Who were we to judge Karen with her seven kids from five different fathers?

“Yet the more we learned about Shannon’s family, the more the tangled roots of the little girl’s unhappiness were cruelly exposed.

“No one is supposed to be “judgmental” any more. But isn’t it the failure to be judgmental that has created the chaotic world where a nine-year-old can (allegedly) be taken by the child-abusing uncle of her mum’s toyboy? An uncle, by the way, with whom the mum herself is alleged to be having an affair. I know it’s hard, madam, but do try to keep up at the back!

“This is precisely the kind of family breakdown that Mr Justice Coleridge warned against on Saturday. The senior judge said that the collapse of the family unit produces “a never-ending carnival of human misery” on a scale few could have imagined even a decade ago.

“On the council estate where my own mum grew up, there was restraint and self-discipline because there was disapproval. Compared to the Matthews, who own two computers for goodness sake, there was poverty, but people had standards.”

A few key points to remember here. This type of crime results from family breakdown, is something new (indeed something “unimaginable a decade ago”), It is attributable to a lack of moral restraint not to lack of resource, and springs from a failure to judge those whose families are in some sense broken.

This is of course, complete nonsense and demonstrably untrue.

The suggestion that these crimes come from “broken” families only and were unimaginable a decade ago, is clearly wrong. We don’t have to reach far for examples of seemingly “happy”, strong families that were horribly destructive two, three, four decades ago . The shelves of bookshops are littered with them.

To take just one example, Stuart Howarth’s book “please daddy, no”, recounts how in the early seventies he and his sisters were abused by his stepfather. You can read the tragic end to the case here.

Yet showing that children are abused, that people have always done terrible, dark things, is not enough. For the allegation is here that it is family breakdown, a collapse of moral order, the has led to these crimes, and that this is new. Simply pointing out that “strong” families can produce similar tragedies merely leads to the accusation that you are ignoring the real problem. So It’s not enough to say these issue are not new, progressives must offer a way out.

Yet the past a good place to start looking for clues about what causes family breakdown.

Nick Davies, writing in the “Dark Heart of Modern Britain” in the mid nineties meets two pre-teen boys working as prostitutes outside toilets in Nottingham. Shocked, he begins to uncover a network of family breakdown, prostitution, drug abuse and lost children. He finds communities that have lost confidence in themselves, turned inwards and begun to consume their own. He blames the loss of the post war consensus.

But of course, Davies is writing  after the social changes of the seventies and eighties, after divorce rates in the UK had been rising for some time. To look at the causes of social breakdown in a time of moral certainty we have to go a little further back, to an era where for the respectable, churchgoing and marriage was the norm.

So how about in the Victorian Era? Henry Mayhew, writing his magnum opus “London Labour and the London Poor” in the 1840s, found example after example of what politicians now call the “Shameless Society”here are just two.

First an example of marriage amongst the London poor. Mayhew is talking to a costergirl, a street trader. He’s careful to say she’s the repsectable type, for he wants his readers to sympathise with her plight.

I dare say there ain’t ten out of a hundred gals what’s living with men, what’s been married Church of England fashion. I know plenty myself, but I don’t, indeed, think it right.

“It seems to me that the gals is fools to be ‘ticed away, but, in coorse, they needn’t go without they likes. This is why I don’t think it’s right. Perhaps a man will have a few words with his gal, and he’ll say, `Oh! I ain’t obligated to keep her!’ and he’ll turn her out: and then where’s that poor gal to go?

“Now, there’s a gal I knows as came to me no later than this here week, and she had a dreadful swole face and a awful black eye; and I says, `Who’s done that?’ and she says, says she, `Why, Jack’ — just in that way; and the she says, says she, `I’m going to take a warrant out to-morrow.’ Well, he gets the warrant that same night, but she never appears again him, for fear of getting more beating.”

“…This is another reason: when the gal is in the family way, the lads mostly sends them to the workhouse to lay in, and only goes sometimes to take them a bit of tea and shuggar; but, in coorse, married men wouldn’t behave in such likes to their poor wives. After a quarrel, too, a lad goes and takes up with another young gal, and that isn’t pleasant for the first one.”

Notice though that marriage here is seen as salvation. Sadly, we never get to hear from the ninety per cent of women who aren’t married. (except in volume 4, when we hear from prostitutes)

But what about the children produced from the irregular victorian unions? What was their fate?

Later in the book, Mayhew talks to two half sisters, in their early teens, making a living as flowersellers.

“My father was a tradesman in Mitchelstown, in the County Cork. I don’t know what sort of a tradesman he was. I never saw him. He was a tradesman I’ve been told. I was born in London. Mother was a chairwoman, and lived very well. None of us ever saw a father.”

[It was evident that they were illegitimate children, but the landlady had never seen the mother, and could give me no information.] “We don’t know anything about our fathers. We were all `mother’s children.’ Mother died seven years ago last Guy Faux day.

I’ve got myself, and my brother and sister a bit of bread ever since, and never had any help but from the neighbours. I never troubled the parish. O, yes, sir, the neighbours is all poor people, very poor, some of them. We’ve lived with her” (indicating her landlady by a gesture) “these two years, and off and on before that. I can’t say how long.”

Well, I don’t know exactly,” said the landlady, “but I’ve had them with me almost all the time, for four years, as near as I can recollect; perhaps more. I’ve moved three times, and they always followed me.”

There were about 1.8 million paupers in England and Wales in the Eighteen Fifties, roughly ten percent of the total population. Their lives would have been much like this- if not worse, as the two cases above were not paupers. Mayhew does caution that the lives of many of the lowest class were never captured by any official statistic, so this may be an underestimate.

Going even further back, we can look at Hogarth’s Gin Lane, Described aptly by Martin Rowson as containing “infanticide, drunken oblivion, disinterment of corpses, starvation, beggary, poverty, impalement, suicide, debt, debauchery and the collapsing buildings standing as metaphor for the collapse of society in general” you might think it was a little over the top, were it not a reaction to a real event.

Gin Lane is  not simply a work of art, but Hogarths response to a contemprary “social crisis” that resulted in cases such as  a mother who reclaimed her baby from the workhouse, left her in a ditch to dies and sold the childs clothes  to buy gin or an elderly carer whose grandchildren died in a fire while she was in a stupor.

Gin Lane then, is a sort of Georgian equivalent of a dramatist using the Shannon Matthews case to write a TV drama. We don’t live in a “Shameless society”, but still in Hogarthian London*, where drugs or owning a computer has replaced buying gin or wasting money on fripperies such as fancy clothes.  Novelist Allison Pearson can in this one respect be compared to Henry Fielding, who blamed increased 18th century crime on a new appetite for luxury amongst the working classes and increased drunkeness. He would have made a fine columnist!o

So neither family breakdown, nor abuse of children, nor the outraged reaction of observers to social breakdown is new.

I hope your first response to this is some disgust with my smug repose. After all, I seem to be saying that what’s happened with Shannon Matthews is somehow tolerable because it is part of a historical continuum of poverty and hopelessness leading to familial breakdown and criminal behaviour.

But my point is rather different.

It is simply to state that instead of seeing a new “family crisis”, something unimaginable a few decades ago, we are in fact seeing the results of the oldest family crisis possible – the results of of culture of worklessness, of lack of hope of ambition, a poverty not only in the sense of material possessions, but of aspirations.

For the last thirty years we have as a matter of policy sought an increasingly fractured society, one that distributres wealth and opportunities unevenly. We cannot then stand back amazed and horrified when confronted with the results of what we have done.

Ah, you might say, but isn’t that just what New Labour has done too? You and yours are complicit in this great fracturing.

In recognising that the price of of an even society was a slowly growing one, Labour accepted that it was impossible to buy a united, more just society at the price of stagnation for the whole economy. Instead, a decade ago Labour proposed a new sort of social compact, promising to put a proportion of the growth of a dynamic, unequal economy into investing in the future of those who would be left behind.

From that commitment springs New Labours emphasis on child poverty, on helping people into work, on Sure Start, on flexible working. It is an investment that will only pay off in a generation or so. It is perhaps, not enough. Cases like Shannon Matthews remind us how entrenched the poverty of education, of aspiriation and of hope is.

If we are honest, we have found it easier to address the material poverty of the sink estates than we have the poverty of ambition that they foster. Addressing material poverty is no small triumph, nor is it anywhere near completed, but for progressives the next stage in the fight against poverty must include a focus on community, family and social responsibility.

Programmes like Sure Start, like community policing, like after schools clubs and education maintenance allowances are making a difference. We’ve go to go further though, especially in addressing those who do not take up offers of help easiliy.

This is a ground we must be prepared to fight on, not because of some ludicrous image of golden era that never existed, or Gracie Fields caricatures of the working classes of four decades ago, but becasue you can change lives in in the junction between parenting, ambition, employment, support and discipline.

It’s why progressive have to embrace, not just the respect agenda, but a firm agenda on strong families and communities. If we don’t, then those for whom a strong family is one that gets a tax cut and a stong community is one that doesnt’ need a Sure Start will seize this ground, and abandon the social compact that after a decade is beginning to see make a difference to our communities but still has a long way yet to run.

*Neither, by the way is our reaction new – Goeroge Orwell captured the Allison Pearson reaction perfectly when he wrote

“IEvery middle-class person has a dormant class-prejudice which needs only a small thing to arouse it; and if he is over forty he probably has a firm conviction that his own class has been sacrificed to the class below.

Suggest to the average unthinking person of gentle birth who is struggling to keep up appearanceson four or five hundred a year that he is a member of an exploiting parasite class, and he will think you are mad. In perfect sincerity he will point out to you a dozen ways in which he is worse-off than a working man. In his eyes the workers are not a submerged race of slaves, they are a sinister flood creeping upwards to engulf himself and his friends and his family and to sweep all culture and all decency out of existence.”

25 Comments

  • Huzza ! The “Myth of the Myth of the Golden Age” makes another appearance.

    I shall link to your wonderful piece.

  • Not magnificent Asquith . Wrong

    A good amble through of the standard apologist response to inconvenient facts Hopi .I am not quite sure what you have said here that is not said on daily basis in the Guardian new Statesman and the BBC, but you do say it endearingly
    The Press , you imply , are perfectly beastly mention the lifestyle of Ms. Mathews . First box ticked then, the lie that the media is dominated by dreadful right wing tendencies …no mention of Murdoch ? Shame .Karen’s previous record of exploiting relationships for housing and benefits is relevant in that such a morally degraded creature would plausibly exploit her child .The social welfare and housing system are of course complicit in the process even if responsibility mainly rest with the doer of the deed. I will not excuse her , as you do , on the basis that ‘society is not fair’ .
    Then you fight a valiant battle against the claim made by absolutely no-one that marriage universally ensures moral behaviour . You refute the claim , made by no-one , that in history there have been no examples of immorality predating the current malaise and that marriage was at all times the norm.
    You , mystifyingly , blame unemployment ( solution ..get a job) and pronounce yourself overjoyed at the replacement of the family with Soviet style crèches .
    Having eaten your cake you then swing into having it , with a call for Labour to value the family and the community. That would be lovely but it would not be Labour who detest ordinary families and express this dislike with hard cash .
    The point of this tawdry story can only be symbolic it happens to combine elements like idleness , callous disregard for ordinary values and a benefit suckling single/endlessly coupling mother . The themes that lie behind the way people react to it are not misguided at all. If you want to see flabbily gaseous political campaigning resting on a random meaningless event look at Blair on the Bulger case. Here there is at least some connection to the political reaction.
    Leaving aside your Tardis excursions into deep history ( Look what vandals the Vikings were?) . The debate is actually this . Is marriage and family stability valuable ,should the government stop destroying it and how much is it actually the Government’s fault ? Finally is anything new really happening at all
    Well it is a new problem . Children now are three times more likely to live in a one parent household than in 1972 ,and Britain now has 1.9 million lone parent households, an increase of 200,000 since Labour came to Power. In London, rules that made it harder to use marriage as means to immigrate lead to a third cut in the number of ceremonies . Marriage has slumped to its lowest level for 150 year and married couples as proportion in the adult population being 53.3%. They were about 2/3 in the 70s.Married women are out numbered by single and divorced women for the fist time this year. One in three children will experience divorce or separation before the age of sixteen and UNICEF.. yes even that left wing collection of whiners, say that Britain’s position as having the least happy children in the developed world is due to the high level of family breakdown.
    Perhaps it doesn’t matter though ? Not so. ONS showed that children of single parent families are about twice as likely to have mental health problems .Children from Lone Parent Families are 2,.4 times as likely to smoke ,1.6 times as likely to drink alcohol .In the US 63% of teenage suicides , 90 % of homeless and 85% of juvenile prisoners are form Fatherless homes ( 70 % of UK young offenders coke from fatherless homes and again in the UK about the same proportion of young drug abusers . You might also look at also Patricia Morgan Civitas , Jill Kirby of the Centre for Policy Studies if you are interested in the truth.). Don’t say marriage is just incidental to the single parent story either .Only one in twelve married couples par within five years of the child’s birth for unmarried couples that number is ONE IN TWO.
    Marriages decline has been disguised by immigration . It has had a disproportionate effect on white working class boys educationally . This was one of the conclusion of Iain Duncan Smiths report and it has not been refuted. How could it be ? Two out of five children are born to unmarried parents that figure was one in eight in 1980 so it is all getting worse
    Alright then but is it New Labour’s fault ?I think the blame can be shared between Labour directly direct fault and the progressive wider constituency . On the obvious side of the equation is the money .The Institute of fiscal studies shows that if a couple are earning £5000 and £15000 a year respectively they will lose £5400 in benefits if they continue to share a home .Care have shown that many couples are £50 per week worse of f they stay together rising to £100. A Couple on £18000 who live in the same house pay a penalty of £8588 per year or 40% of their pre-tax income .A couple on £50,000 per year would be £7000 worse off . Shortfalls then are throughout the population . No wonder 200,000 cohabiting couples are pretending to live apart
    I appreciate that social and economic changes are at work and also that groups like war widows show that single motherhood alone is not a curse . Nonetheless Brown abolished the marriage allowance ,already eroded ,and will not allow tax allowances to be transferable. Priority in the housing queue is routinely given to single mothers ,encouragement of the use of abortion as a contraceptive technique , the absurd myth of the girl who does not know she is pregnant or how it happened . (For God’s sake what world do these people live in, some bourgeois island of fantasy ?) Sure Start , has failed to be used by those it was intended for . National colleges for parenting and assorted gimmicks are only that and the blameless middleclass divorcee blonde with grief , wheeled it by the BBC are beside the point.
    So it is entirely obvious why Karen Mathews seems to sum up so much that has gone badly wrong . It looks like Labour’s Britain. Sad bored useless and so pathetic as to invent a fantasy scam while idling a feral life away on benefits in social housing with no respect for anything least of all herself . Meanwhile who pays ….Ordinary working families struggling to live decent lives with no help from the state whatsoever .
    The left assault on marriage and Conservative Plans to remove the impediments were the precursor to the first swing from Gordon brown to Cameron. One of the groups to do so were women and amongst them were as many unmarried mothers as any other group.

  • Newmania, I agree that the married two-parent family is the best way to bring up children.

    But I don’t think any legislation a Tory goivernment is likely to bring in would advance family values. Why did single parenthood and welfare dependency shoot up under Thatcher? That’s right.

    I grew up on a sink estate, and I do know how utterly desperate life is. But if you shout abuse at people and tell them they’re scum, they will behave like scum. If you have faith in people and encourage them, they’ll surprise you.

    Look at the long-term unemployed, for example. Is it really helpful to tell them what worthless scroungers they are? No, because they’re no different to anyone else, they’ve just been demoralised and infantilised. Obviously I don’t think people should live on benefits, they should work. But the real problem is the poor expectations of these communities, which results in low self-esteem and demotivation as surely as night follows day. Most of the unemployed and the NEETS could get good, productive occupations.

    At the very heart of my liberalism is the belief that a child born on a sink estate is just as special as one born into luxury. That’s why I support, to give on example, a pupil premium so that schools which teach poor children recieve more funding. A bit of investment into a decent education system and adult training would work wonders. People were dismissed and written off by Thatcher and her heirs, but it shouldn’t be so.

    I don’t want to go round enacting law after law and regulation after regulation. I believe that the poorest people can become self-reliant and will cease to be clients of the state, if they ever come to believe in themselves and be accepted by society as equals. Because the fact is, at present, the wall in the head (a phrase you might have heard before…) is reinforced by poor services and low expectations. But it can be broken.

    At the moment, socialists and conservatives both, in their different ways, treat the poor as second-class citizens. But there is another way to follow :)

  • “they’re no different to anyone else, they’ve just been demoralised and infantilised”

    I take it you’re raising your children among them, then, if that’s what you really think ?

    In practice of course they ARE different in their behaviour – and that’s what generally counts in ones interactions with others. No one is arguing that they aren’t human beings, just as we are.

    You need to take a look at a piece by Free Born John “The unconscionable cruelty of Polly Toynbee”

    http://freebornjohn.blogspot.com/2006/11/unconscionable-cruelty-of-polly-t.html

  • I don’t have children and never will. But since you ask, I’ve spent my life on sink estates (my parents, who do routine jobs, bought their house from the council and can’t afford a house in a more salubrious area), and am now a council tenant on an estate.

    I disagree with Toynbee’s statism. This post on the link you give
    “The answer lies not in the redistribution of wealth, but in the creation of wealth, by the poorest, for the poorest – for themselves”

    is closer to my way of thinking. But the state should pay a role in, for example, adult training. People won’t wake up one morning and turn their lives around, they need some form of encouragement. And after that, they won’t be state clients and I dare say the stricken estates will become more prosperopus.

    I’m an economic liberal, not a socialist. But I don’t believe in leaving people to rot.

  • Laban- the stats on paupery, are linked and are from mayhew. so I’d like it if you’d correct that for a start.

    Second, as mayhew says, the stats themselves are misleading,. You have to have an overwhelming faith in the brilliance of the victorian state at recording the activities of thier underclass to accept them.

    Finally, you rather shoot yourselves in the foot when you point out that eras of relavtives prosperity for the working classes (1870s vs 1840s) results in less bastardy. Wonder why that could be, eh?

  • brilliant article hopi

  • oh- and since Laban seems to believe in the golden age and the accuracy of victorian ere birth records, wonder how he copes with these examples of family values..

    http://www.loyno.edu/~history/journal/1989-0/haller.htm

  • Under Thatcher the economy went through dramatic changes that laid the foundation for future success. Unemployment was high when feather bedded industry was asked to sink or swim. Dependency went up as it will do now .
    Single motherhood has risen since the seventies for many reasons ,Divorced women and those between marriages are part if the picture .The real problem which is only one group.
    Nonetheless this change is not inevitable and there are signs that the tide is turning . If the left were not so doctrinally opposed to the institution of marriage and parenthood itself then its encouragement has a role to play in the future . My complaint is that Labour have actively sought to destroy marriage because it is old …and as we know “New” = good

    Asquith- . I would encourage neediness and singleness like any means tested goody?Everyone will be cynical and pie faced ingénue who thinks just a bit more soaking the tax payer and all will be well

    Hopi I was far from clear from you essay whether you approved of the unmarried dividend or not . Do you ?

  • I was unaware that crèches were a Soviet invention. Still, silver lining to every cloud and all that.

  • interesting link, but babyfarming deaths pale a little beside our current 190,000-odd terminations p.a.

    As I posted on my blog, individual cases may illuminate and exemplify a trend, but first we have to establish that one exists. Chucking horror stories around without some evidence to suggest that these were the norm or on the increase is not proof of anything in particular.

    Your pauper link – it links to one page on the life of a coster girl, which has no stats in it at all. Have you got the link right ?

  • PS – the glorious soon to be ex-Leader of the LP is a Gertrude Himmelfarb fan. Isn’t he a bit of a golden ager himself ?

  • Hear, Hear!

    Seriously good stuff. Hopi

    Poverty of ambition is one of the hardest issues to tackle.

    I agree with Asquith that the sort of demonisation of impoverished and unemployed communities which Thatcher started, and which Newmania clearly buys into, has only served to buttress this sense of hopelessness, and its continued espousal by the right wing press has made it difficult for Labour to be sufficiently upfront about it.

    I take a very dim view of Karen Matthews parenting skills and certainly do not think it is simply the fault of society rather than one of personal responsibility, but for the sake of the children, cases like Shannon Matthews illustrate why we need to do more to address poor parenting and child poverty in its widest sense, not less.

    For the record, I happen to believe in marriage, but I completely fail to see how the Tory suggestion of reintroducing a taxation approach which they themselves helped to abolish, through the budgets of Nigel Lawson – will in any way encourage it.

    The ‘decline’ in marriage is a symptom of wider changes in our society. Not the cause of it.

    Tackling poverty is an agenda Labour should be proud of, not defensive about.

  • Agree entirely with you Hopi but Laban’s last point is good.

    A few years ago Cameron said: “I love modern Britain as it is now’, now he talks as if we are in the last days of Sodom and Gomorrah.

    What has changed? Well not his analysis since he doesn’t have one, but GB hasn’t helped with his puritanism (cannabis, gambling, 24 hour dinking), and his willingness to play on fear (everything is terible but only I can hold the line – bloody Gertrude Himmelfarb).

    Going abroad I’m always struck by how Britain has so little to complain about. We are despondent because our economy might only grow by 1.6% in a year. House prices might down down by 2%…

    There is a lot going for modern Britain but at the moment no-one seems willing to make the case for it.

    On the myth of the golden age: One of my grantfathers was one of eight (from four fathers), the other was one of 11 (with another 4 dying as babies).

    The half of my family that comes from rural wales came from an intensely methodist area. A quarter of childbirths were without a fathers name on the birth certificate (as a bloomsbury intellectual inadvertently discovered).

    My ancestors clung to their methodism because their society was constantly disintegrating; Their decendants have abandoned theirs because it is not.

  • Laban,

    The mayhew source is from vol 4 of Mayhew (the “extra” volume). Rather frustatingly, the site appears to be down at the moment as I can’t get the page to load with safari, firefox or explorer, but the link is here…

    http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A2000.01.0029&query=head%3D%23187

    I have however found a cache of another chart in Mayhew where he uses a figure of 1.47million for 1844. (This is consistent with the 1.8million because Mayhew says that there had been a major increase in the intervening period)

    http://64.233.183.104/search?q=cache:Lf0HMDDbzz4J:www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext%3Fdoc%3DPerseus:text:2000.01.0029%26query%3Did%253D%2523543+mayhew+paupers&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1

    Rather worringly, if you do a google search for mayhew, paupers, this thread is the top result, ahead of the actual document! Teh intenetz are eating themselves!

  • Pregethwr, Laban is right- we should pay attention to the data, but as a good historian, you can’t just take the data as read.

    For example, Laban talks about the fact that there were limited numbers of illegitimate births in the mid nineteenth century, and he’s quite right- look at the data and there’s what, 40k a year? Yet it was only until the mid 1870’s that birth registration became compulsory (and even then it was patchy). So how many illegitimite babies simply disappeared? We don’t know.

    Second, Laban quotes approvingly the fact that the illegitimitcy rate fell in the generation after the passing of the poor law.

    So it did, but what is happening beneath the surface is that new poor law legislation placed the burden of support on mothers, rather than both parents and if needed, from the parish as previously, so there is a huge incentive for illegitimate babies not to be registered- you miss the social shame, can hand over to a baby farmer, or pretend it is a legitimate birth from another family member, thus qualifying for parish support.

  • “To take just one example, Stuart Howarth’s book “please daddy, no”, recounts how in the early seventies he and his sisters were abused by his stepfather. You can read the tragic end to the case here.”

    So that would be abuse by a stepfather then. Not normally regarded as part of the traditional family are they?

  • Hopi with the greatest respect , Victorian England is irrelevant , unless I am missing something . I have demonstrated the sharp decline in marriage following the 60s and the tax /benefit regime that currently assists its demise. …?
    The Victorian period is interesting though and so is the horror of observers as the new urban underclass. In fact conditions were so bad that mortality would have shrunk the population without the constant immigration from the country . Many of these people originated from settled communities where literacy and health had been vastly better until they came under pressure form the agricultural revolution and the mysterious step change in population growth that predated the industrial revolution . Why not go back further to the real golden age of the English peasantry not all of which is a myth. No-one thinks the condition of the Victorian poor was a good thing least of all Victorians. It has been a by word for a hell on earth since it was noticed and the claim that we are no better or worse now approaches the “so what” synthesis.

  • Ed- Ah ok, if you want examples of abuse committed only by blood relatives, try the research tool known as your local bookshop. You will find about fifty.

    Newmania -yes, we do seem to have drifted in a a victorian alley-way. Let me ask you this. It isn’t really the tax changes that impacted marriage stability, but the legal changes. MIRAs, for example lasted well into the 90’s, yet divorce rates are at their lowest since 1977.

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2007/aug/30/lifeandhealth.relationships

    The divorce rate leapt between 1965 and 1977. Why- mostly because of the 1971 Divorce reform act. Know anyone who wants to repeal that? Me neither.

    What

  • “for the sake of the children, cases like Shannon Matthews illustrate why we need to do more to address poor parenting and child poverty in its widest sense, not less”

    I think a quote from Charles Murray is in order here :

    “Social programmes for intervening with children at risk have consistently meagre results. This finding has even longer shelves of analysis than the literature on the children of single parents.

    During the 1960s and 1970s, the Americans tried everything: pre-school socialisation programmes, enrichment programmes in elementary schools, programmes that provided guaranteed jobs for young people without skills, ones that provided on-the-job training, programmes that sent young people without skills to residential centres for extended skills training and psychological preparation for the world of work, programmes to prevent school dropout, and so on. These are just the efforts aimed at individuals. I won’t even try to list the varieties of programmes that went under the heading of “community development”. They were also the most notorious failures.

    We know the programmes didn’t work because all of them were accompanied by evaluations. I was a programme evaluator from 1968 to 1981. The most eminent of America’s experts on programme evaluation — a liberal sociologist named Peter Rossi — distilled this vast experience into what he called the Iron Law of Evaluation: “The expected value of any net impact assessment of any large-scale social programme is zero.” The Iron Law has not been overturned by subsequent experience.

    I should add a corollary to it, however: “The initial media accounts of social programmes that ultimately fail are always positive.” Every training programme for young men or parenting programme for young women can produce a heart-warming success story for the evening news. None produces long-term group results that survive scrutiny.

    None of this experience crosses the Atlantic. When the Blair government began its ambitious job-training programmes, I wondered whether anyone within the bowels of the appropriate ministries said: “You know, the Americans tried lots of these things years ago. I wonder how they worked?” But apparently nobody did or nobody listened. Now the government seems ready to admit that the results of the training programmes have been dismal. But as it sets off on the next round of bright ideas, I still don’t hear anyone saying: “You know, the Americans tried those programmes too . . .”

    The bottom line for this accumulation of experience in America is that it is impossible to make up for parenting deficits through outside interventions. I realise this is still an intellectually unacceptable thing to say in Britain. It used to be intellectually unacceptable in the United States as well. No longer. We’ve been there, done that.”

  • Laban, I’ve read your links re: the “underclass”. But I don’t understand on what basis these people are to be stigmatised. Is it supposed to be genetic? All very well and good, but no serious scientist has ever suggested that IQ (not even Charles Murray, and I am familiar with him) doesn’t have a significant environmental component. If you took these children away from their parents and sent them to Eton, they’d do better than children from professional families at a sink school. Yes, it’s bad parenting. But people are not just to be dismissed, Daily Mail-style.

    Probably the most annoying thing about the moralising right is the way they always talk about how they are “realistic” and a liberal approach wouldn’t work. Well, I’ve got some news for you. We’ve been doing it the Tory way (lock everyone up, treat everyone like shit, never ask yourself any uncomfortable questions) for 29 years without a break. And it clearly hasn’t worked. Did Thatcher cut crime?

    Even if this government has given up on the idea, I still believe in addressing the causes of crime. If we get rid of the culture in which people think they’ll never be able to earn an honest living, they won’t be driven towards a life of crime. And surely the lesson of America is that all the “family values” and moralising won’t make up for the basic, if unfashionable, fact that education and other services should be improved.

    And as I keep saying, that approach will lead to less welfare dependency than we have now, not more. If you want statism and people living pointless lives on benefits, then just carry on as before.

  • Divorce rates are lower because so few people are getting married in the first place ( duh) although there has been a very slight upturn in interest in marriage . You would be staggered how few female graduates ever have children. You have a made a sad lonely world for us, no question
    Divorce did not leap only because of the Divorce act but also because of the 60s social revolution a passing fashion universally agreed to have been a silly mistake ..well some of it anyway and I do not support the current regime
    Divorce law in this country is appallingly punitive to the man and is hated by almost everyone. It’s a bit like immigration , we have yet to reach the point where people are brave enough to say so but we will, oh yes we will ,and then you will be on the wrong side of that argument as well.

    True the overall figures can be forced to dance in all sorts of rows because they contain many conflicting tendencies some benign some not ,partly marriage reached a low core support and stuck there .
    The real problem area however is the combination of social economic and marriage breakdown all in the same benefits wastelands .This is where the grey economy and the single parent dividend are so toxic and if you want to argue that a cash payment for living apart and a free flat for having a kid does not have an effect do please continue.
    It is exactly this sort of disingenuous and slippery argument that has earned the Labour Party the contempt of working people who know better. You seem to have lost touch with life as we see it every day and that is why a slight economic sniffle and you collapse . It was pushing an open door

    Incidentally ,I was reading the witch Toynbee bemoaning the retreat of the wimmins movement this morning .She was claiming that girls being girly is all a capitalist plot and so on. Well perhaps she did spit on her dolls house and demand a tractor but as a newish father I watch how they behave at Nursery.I have been amazed how different the little boys and girls were without any help from the military industrial power nexus and Murdoch etc.. I wonder why it is that the left always wants women to wear dungarees and be plumbers despite their obvious wish not to be . Look at post USSR Russia , the first thing they did was have a beauty contest

    Just wondering, honest you will see what I mean if you ever breed yourself .( Although if you marry …sorry live with…another socialist you will get no sex . They just re-announce the previous nights as if that were the same thing )

  • Hopi, I’m touched by your faith in the progressive system. Despite decades of the finest socialist / progressive minds beavering away for a just and fair society in countries all around the world, despite all their hard work, we still see failure after failure. For all the hundreds of billions of (our) pounds G Broon, Esq has chucked at progressive institutions, society as a whole is still no better than it was before. And despite the universal denigration of Margaret Thatcher as a right-wing destroyer of society, she was not nearly right-wing enough.

    We now have three main political parties fighting over a political spectrum that is a broad as one of my hairs. Everyone is arguing over how the state should do more with less or do things differently, but the reality of it is, the state is the problem, not the solution. The state is like any other organisation, it needs to grow, and its growth brings more inefficiency and, crucially, less to aspire to.

    The poverty of ambition you lament can be laid at the door of the welfare state and no amount of reorganisation of the state can change this. The state needs to be reduced, and dramatically so. You wish for a more just society, but society is not just and by making it difficult for people to achieve their own wealth you remove a fundamental plank of the bridge to ambition.

    The best expression I’ve read in a while is that people need a safety net, but they have been given a hammock. And why strive for anything better when you have food, drink, clothing and a nice comfy hammock?

  • Families who live like Shannon Matthews are nothing new. I grew up on a very rough council estate in the 1970’s and 80’s. Although I wasn’t aware of any child prostitutes, There was lots of illegal drug taking, anti social behaviour, and children receiving very little parenting or abusive parenting.

    I was lucky that my parents are fundamentally decent parents. However, like many people on the estate they lived on benefits. They eventually got back into work and off the estate because they got fed up with struggling with very little money.

    I escaped and went to University, but my brother is now married, working very few hours, and claiming substantial benefits for him and his large family.

    There were some families on the estate I grew up on who would always struggle to improve their lives. These were families with alcohol or drug addiction or severe mental health problems.

    However there are others like my brother who are happy to do the minimum amount of work to get money to survive. My brother basically refuses to work any more than the small number of hours he does every week. His wife refuses to work at all as any money she earned would be taken off their benefits.

    There are many many people who are not classed as unemployed, but who work the system in this way. The reality is that nowdays that the benefit system we have encourages people to work 16 hours a week and have their income topped up by working tax credits.


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